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Ted's Table

March 7,2000

This Week, Ted Tackles: What happens if I get two 1099s when I roll my 401(k) into an IRA? … I lost a lot of money when it took seven months to get out of my 401(k) and ESOP; what recourse do I have? … How do I pay the proper tax when I roll my 401(k) with after-tax money into an IRA? … What are the issues with retiring before age 55 with a 25-and-out plan? … When can I get money from my 401(k) plan if I was fired? … Will taking occasional withdrawals from a 401(k) plan between age 60 and 70 trigger a mandatory withdrawal schedule?

Question: My employer's 401(k) was terminated in 1999 with IRS approval. The third-party administrator (TPA) distributed the funds as directed by each participant. I chose to directly transfer my balance to a rollover IRA. After all the dollars were distributed from the 401(k), the TPA discovered that they failed to do the ADP (non-discrimination) test. They ran it and we failed because the highly compensated employees had made excess contributions.

The TPA sent a notice telling me the amount of the excess contribution plus earnings. I requested the money be distributed from the rollover because these dollars were not rollable.

The brokerage where my IRA is kept sent me a check for the excess contribution, earnings from the 401(k) and earnings from the IRA based from the day the dollars were rolled to the time of distribution.

I don't have an issue with the amount. The problem is that the TPA issued two 1099's, one for the allowable rollover dollars and one showing the excess contribution plus earnings amount using a distribution code of 8.

My thought is that the IRS is going to think I received two distributions and will be looking for taxes on both. Neither the TPA nor my brokerage will correct the 1099's. What do I do?

TB: You must report only the amount that was refunded as taxable income. You should retain all your records so that you will be able to show the IRS exactly what happened in the event of an audit.

Question: I was one of hundreds of workers laid off because of a merger. I have a considerable amount of money in my 401(k) and ESOP fund. I was able to move all funds except my employer matching contributions and the ESOP contributions out of the surviving company's stock. However, 6,000 of the shares decreased in value by 48%, during the 7-month blackout period. Do I have any recourse regarding the extended length of time this plan transfer took?

TB: The answer to your question is yes, but it's likely to require some patience and effort.

I recommend proceeding as follows. Submit a written request to the human resources director of your company. In it explain your situation and request a restoration of the money you have lost. Include in the letter that you will contact the Department of Labor and/or retain an attorney to help you if the bank refuses to restore the amount you have lost in a timely manner. You may contact the Department of Labor by calling 800.998.7542. You will need to contact some attorneys in your area to find one who is knowledgeable about this subject.

Question: I plan to retire at age 55 from a Fortune 100 company. I'll take my 401(k) and roll it over into an IRA. In the 401(k) there are three kinds of money:

  1. Money with no tax owed
  2. Money with federal taxes owed (before tax), and
  3. Money with federal and state taxes owed (for capital gains and dividends, etc.)
How do I prevent mix-ups?

I want to make sure I don't pay taxes twice. I know people at my company who have had taxes withheld on after-tax contributions to their 401(k).

TB: If you roll the entire untaxed portion directly to an IRA, your employer shouldn't withhold any taxes. The employer is required to withhold taxes only when a participant receives a distribution directly from the plan. So, the key is to not take your taxable money but to open the IRA in advance and to instruct your employer to transfer the entire taxable distribution to this account. This is known as a trustee-to-trustee transfer. The money you roll over directly to the IRA will be taxable as you withdraw it from the IRA.

Any money you have in the plan on which you have already paid federal income tax must be distributed to you. No taxes should be withheld from this amount since you have already paid the applicable taxes.

Question: I'll be retired before age 55, on a 25-and-out plan. Will I face any problems with my 401(k) or taking money out of an IRA?

TB: A problem you will face if you leave your employer prior to age 55 is the 10% penalty tax that applies to early distributions. It will be necessary for you to structure the distribution from your 401(k) and IRA as an "annuity" stream of income in order to avoid this penalty tax.

However, most 401(k) plans don't permit this type of distribution. If your plan doesn't permit equal, periodic distributions, you should roll the entire amount directly into an IRA. Before you do this, discuss with the financial organization where you intend to place the money and exactly how this will work.

Question: My husband was recently terminated from his job. He had been there eight years and is 100% vested. His account balance is $27,000. I read the paperwork we have and it states: "The plan permits you to elect distribution as of any distribution date of the first plan year beginning after you terminate employment with employer."

The plan year runs from Jan. 1 to Dec. 31. Does this mean we have no right to withdraw the money until 2001?

TB: The answer to your question probably is yes. Legally 401(k) plans aren't required to distribute the money accumulated until retirement age. Most employers want to get rid of the money former employees have accumulated so they permit earlier distributions. Your husband probably was a participant in a plan that updates the value of participant accounts only at the end of each plan year. Distributions from such plans generally aren't permitted until after this updating process is completed. This usually takes six to eight weeks after the end of the plan year. The amount distributed is the value as of the December 31 year-end. Your husband won't receive any investment gains or losses from December 31 to the date his benefit is paid.

This arrangement is legally permissible so the only thing you can do is wait.

Question: Is it possible to take occasional withdrawals from 401(k)s (and IRAs) after retirement between age 60 and 70 without triggering the mandatory withdrawal schedule?

TB: Legally a participant may withdraw any amount he wishes between the ages of 60 and 70 without having to pay the early distribution penalty tax. Any such distributions won't trigger the mandatory distribution schedule. However, your employer's plan may not provide for such distributions. Some 401(k) plans don't include a provision allowing active employees who are over age 59½ to withdraw money. You will need to check to see whether your plan permits such distributions.

Ted Benna, creator of the first 401(k) retirement savings plan, will answer your most intriguing questions every week. With over 30 years of experience as an employee benefits consultant, Ted is a nationally recognized expert on benefits issues. He has authored two books, Helping Employees Achieve Retirement Income Security and Escaping the Coming Retirement Crisis, and is President of the 401(k) Association. Ted is a frequent speaker at meetings of 401(k) plan sponsors and participants. His articles and comments have appeared in numerous publications, including The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.


The information provided here is intended to help you understand the general issue and does not constitute any tax, investment or legal advice. Consult your financial, tax or legal advisor regarding your own unique situation and your company's benefits representative for rules specific to your plan.
401Kafe.com is the premier online community resource for 401(k) participants


Copyright © 1996 - 2000 mPower. All Rights Reserved.
401K Central    
  Home
  Commentary
  Tips
  Education
  Tools
  Library
IRA Central    
  Home
  Commentary
  Tips
  Education
  Library

Ted's Table

March 7,2000

This Week, Ted Tackles: What happens if I get two 1099s when I roll my 401(k) into an IRA? … I lost a lot of money when it took seven months to get out of my 401(k) and ESOP; what recourse do I have? … How do I pay the proper tax when I roll my 401(k) with after-tax money into an IRA? … What are the issues with retiring before age 55 with a 25-and-out plan? … When can I get money from my 401(k) plan if I was fired? … Will taking occasional withdrawals from a 401(k) plan between age 60 and 70 trigger a mandatory withdrawal schedule?

Question: My employer's 401(k) was terminated in 1999 with IRS approval. The third-party administrator (TPA) distributed the funds as directed by each participant. I chose to directly transfer my balance to a rollover IRA. After all the dollars were distributed from the 401(k), the TPA discovered that they failed to do the ADP (non-discrimination) test. They ran it and we failed because the highly compensated employees had made excess contributions.

The TPA sent a notice telling me the amount of the excess contribution plus earnings. I requested the money be distributed from the rollover because these dollars were not rollable.

The brokerage where my IRA is kept sent me a check for the excess contribution, earnings from the 401(k) and earnings from the IRA based from the day the dollars were rolled to the time of distribution.

I don't have an issue with the amount. The problem is that the TPA issued two 1099's, one for the allowable rollover dollars and one showing the excess contribution plus earnings amount using a distribution code of 8.

My thought is that the IRS is going to think I received two distributions and will be looking for taxes on both. Neither the TPA nor my brokerage will correct the 1099's. What do I do?

TB: You must report only the amount that was refunded as taxable income. You should retain all your records so that you will be able to show the IRS exactly what happened in the event of an audit.

Question: I was one of hundreds of workers laid off because of a merger. I have a considerable amount of money in my 401(k) and ESOP fund. I was able to move all funds except my employer matching contributions and the ESOP contributions out of the surviving company's stock. However, 6,000 of the shares decreased in value by 48%, during the 7-month blackout period. Do I have any recourse regarding the extended length of time this plan transfer took?

TB: The answer to your question is yes, but it's likely to require some patience and effort.

I recommend proceeding as follows. Submit a written request to the human resources director of your company. In it explain your situation and request a restoration of the money you have lost. Include in the letter that you will contact the Department of Labor and/or retain an attorney to help you if the bank refuses to restore the amount you have lost in a timely manner. You may contact the Department of Labor by calling 800.998.7542. You will need to contact some attorneys in your area to find one who is knowledgeable about this subject.

Question: I plan to retire at age 55 from a Fortune 100 company. I'll take my 401(k) and roll it over into an IRA. In the 401(k) there are three kinds of money:

  1. Money with no tax owed
  2. Money with federal taxes owed (before tax), and
  3. Money with federal and state taxes owed (for capital gains and dividends, etc.)
How do I prevent mix-ups?

I want to make sure I don't pay taxes twice. I know people at my company who have had taxes withheld on after-tax contributions to their 401(k).

TB: If you roll the entire untaxed portion directly to an IRA, your employer shouldn't withhold any taxes. The employer is required to withhold taxes only when a participant receives a distribution directly from the plan. So, the key is to not take your taxable money but to open the IRA in advance and to instruct your employer to transfer the entire taxable distribution to this account. This is known as a trustee-to-trustee transfer. The money you roll over directly to the IRA will be taxable as you withdraw it from the IRA.

Any money you have in the plan on which you have already paid federal income tax must be distributed to you. No taxes should be withheld from this amount since you have already paid the applicable taxes.

Question: I'll be retired before age 55, on a 25-and-out plan. Will I face any problems with my 401(k) or taking money out of an IRA?

TB: A problem you will face if you leave your employer prior to age 55 is the 10% penalty tax that applies to early distributions. It will be necessary for you to structure the distribution from your 401(k) and IRA as an "annuity" stream of income in order to avoid this penalty tax.

However, most 401(k) plans don't permit this type of distribution. If your plan doesn't permit equal, periodic distributions, you should roll the entire amount directly into an IRA. Before you do this, discuss with the financial organization where you intend to place the money and exactly how this will work.

Question: My husband was recently terminated from his job. He had been there eight years and is 100% vested. His account balance is $27,000. I read the paperwork we have and it states: "The plan permits you to elect distribution as of any distribution date of the first plan year beginning after you terminate employment with employer."

The plan year runs from Jan. 1 to Dec. 31. Does this mean we have no right to withdraw the money until 2001?

TB: The answer to your question probably is yes. Legally 401(k) plans aren't required to distribute the money accumulated until retirement age. Most employers want to get rid of the money former employees have accumulated so they permit earlier distributions. Your husband probably was a participant in a plan that updates the value of participant accounts only at the end of each plan year. Distributions from such plans generally aren't permitted until after this updating process is completed. This usually takes six to eight weeks after the end of the plan year. The amount distributed is the value as of the December 31 year-end. Your husband won't receive any investment gains or losses from December 31 to the date his benefit is paid.

This arrangement is legally permissible so the only thing you can do is wait.

Question: Is it possible to take occasional withdrawals from 401(k)s (and IRAs) after retirement between age 60 and 70 without triggering the mandatory withdrawal schedule?

TB: Legally a participant may withdraw any amount he wishes between the ages of 60 and 70 without having to pay the early distribution penalty tax. Any such distributions won't trigger the mandatory distribution schedule. However, your employer's plan may not provide for such distributions. Some 401(k) plans don't include a provision allowing active employees who are over age 59½ to withdraw money. You will need to check to see whether your plan permits such distributions.

Ted Benna, creator of the first 401(k) retirement savings plan, will answer your most intriguing questions every week. With over 30 years of experience as an employee benefits consultant, Ted is a nationally recognized expert on benefits issues. He has authored two books, Helping Employees Achieve Retirement Income Security and Escaping the Coming Retirement Crisis, and is President of the 401(k) Association. Ted is a frequent speaker at meetings of 401(k) plan sponsors and participants. His articles and comments have appeared in numerous publications, including The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.


The information provided here is intended to help you understand the general issue and does not constitute any tax, investment or legal advice. Consult your financial, tax or legal advisor regarding your own unique situation and your company's benefits representative for rules specific to your plan.
401Kafe.com is the premier online community resource for 401(k) participants


Copyright © 1996 - 2000 mPower. All Rights Reserved.